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oldbillplod
Moderator Group
Joined: 08 September 2005
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 Topic: Firerams question Posted: 30 October 2005 at 10:55am |
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By police officers, I include PCSO's, Specials and retired officers.
By public, I include civilian members of staff and everyone else I haven't thought of.
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A snout has told me he's got a set of nostrils, so go and get a W so we can spin his drum to see if he's got any monkey gear - The Sweeney.
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Stan Still
Moderator Group
Crown Skivvie
Joined: 04 September 2005
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 Posted: 30 October 2005 at 11:24am |
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I've voted no - only because I wouldn't trust some of the officers I know with a water pistol!
The training implications are immense! Initial training then constant
refresher courses. Plus having the IPCC round your neck if you were
ever to use the bloody thing.
Having said all that, I suspect that the number of armed officers will
dramatically increase in the next few years, but I'm not sure that
every one of us will get a shooter!
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The basic mission for which the police exist is to prevent crime and disorder.
You're Nicked!
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mintcake
Muppet
Joined: 29 October 2005
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Posts: 13
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 Posted: 30 October 2005 at 12:35pm |
I am a firearms officer. We place the responsibility of a firearm into the hands of 17, 18 and 19 year olds, give them very little police training and put them on the streets of Britian. Yes, we already do it. Its called Northern Ireland and the soldiers are answerable to the judiciary as Lee Clegg found out to his cost.
What is the difference in standards from the average british bobby to the average squadie to the average Swedish, Dutch, German, Danish etc etc police officer? Certainly in one of those countries, the training is more extensive. I believe in certain areas of the UK, there is a now definate need for universal arming, getting this idea of "tradition" out of the way for the necessary requirements for police to police effectively.
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Søren
Old Sweat
Joined: 22 September 2005
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Posts: 245
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 Posted: 30 October 2005 at 1:11pm |
I've been an AFO now for 8 years.
I've voted no. Like fivejays, I'd hate to see some of my colleages armed.
I'd hate to see the stakes raised which will happen.
I also believe the number of police officers and MOP killed will rise dramatically.
I don't think tradition has anything to do with the argument, it depends on how our country via our elected peers want the public face of policing to be.
If we acquire more paramilitaria, we lose the ability to police at the lower level, which the public, me included, consider to be very important.
I believe that particular local inner city issues have to be resolved at local levels, but nationally, we must remain unarmed if we want to try to keep any kind of lid on the criminal use of firearms.
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Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler.
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oldbillplod
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 Posted: 30 October 2005 at 2:01pm |
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It can only be a matter of time, ask any Met officer, they have bought
enough Glocks for everyone of them and given the nod from the
government will be churning out 2 day basic handgun courses and giving
their people guns for protection only.
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A snout has told me he's got a set of nostrils, so go and get a W so we can spin his drum to see if he's got any monkey gear - The Sweeney.
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gb8143
Old Sweat
Joined: 29 September 2005
Location: United Kingdom
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Posts: 295
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 Posted: 30 October 2005 at 3:35pm |
I've voted no. As a bobby i dread the day (if or when it comes) when a Glock is standard issue. I certainly would not say no to a Taser however.
If they give guns to us all, there will certainly be far more bobbies and MOP killed. have a look at http://www.odmp.org/
The number of Cops Killed by an accident with their own weapon is shocking.
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If it all goes pear shaped, at least Ive got my wheels
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JENKINS3563
Garage Sergeant
Joined: 22 August 2005
Location: United Kingdom
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Posts: 1997
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 Posted: 30 October 2005 at 3:45pm |
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i agree with the last comments - tasars or other non lethal means would be welcomed by most officers i would have thought but blanketly enabling all officers to carry guns would not be the way to go - i agree that there are some officers i know who i most definatley would not like to see with a gun
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looking for inspiration
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Penbwlch
Moderator Group
Joined: 12 August 2005
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 Posted: 30 October 2005 at 4:51pm |
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I have voted no. Not everyone has the same skills. I admire the professionalism of our armed officers and I believe this would be diluted if everyone was given a gun.
I always preferred the option of having high quality armed officers to assist when necessary rather than having a gun myself.
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I used to be conceited. Now I'm Perfect
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bluearsedfly
Moderator Group
Forum Philanderer
Joined: 15 August 2005
Location: United Kingdom
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Posts: 3589
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 Posted: 30 October 2005 at 5:00pm |
Hmmm
I can see both arguments, but I had to wait 6 minutes before a trojan unit turned up to deal with a potential firearms call, in which time the suspect had walked straight towards us and i had to use my gift of the gab in order that we were able to get the drop on him and cuff him... firearm was found in nearby garden... i discovered adrenaline is coloured brown on that day
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Don't Walk, FLY!
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Stan Still
Moderator Group
Crown Skivvie
Joined: 04 September 2005
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 Posted: 30 October 2005 at 5:22pm |
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Six minutes for an armed response is pretty good going. Given the size
of our force, I don't think we have enough ARVs on routine patrol. For
obvious reasons I'm not going to go into details, but there is
definitely a shortage.
Some forces operate a system where an ARV responds, then tools up
locally based AFOs if necessary. I think this could be a solution, as
there is no doubt that we need a more resilient armed response option.
I wouldn't want to see all of us carrying a gun though.
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The basic mission for which the police exist is to prevent crime and disorder.
You're Nicked!
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Penbwlch
Moderator Group
Joined: 12 August 2005
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 Posted: 30 October 2005 at 5:42pm |
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I agree with fivejays. The answer is to improve the response time of ARVs rather than to arm everyone.
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I used to be conceited. Now I'm Perfect
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Special Girl
Class I (Fighter Command)
Joined: 04 October 2005
Location: England
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Posts: 696
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 Posted: 30 October 2005 at 7:08pm |
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I have voted no too. I really respect armed officers for what they do
but I would not want to find myself in the same situation as them. Plus
the cost of training all officers would be quite immense.
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Barry87
Old Sweat
Joined: 21 September 2005
Location: Northern Ireland
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 Posted: 30 October 2005 at 7:08pm |
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I wouldn't like to be the person that has to decide wether or not to pull the trigger.
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Special Girl
Class I (Fighter Command)
Joined: 04 October 2005
Location: England
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Posts: 696
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 Posted: 30 October 2005 at 7:13pm |
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Nor would I Barry.....just look what happens when you do!
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NorthernMonkey
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 Posted: 30 October 2005 at 8:27pm |
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Wouldn't bother me. My lot are anyway.
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cage
Canteen Cowboy
Joined: 20 October 2005
Location: United Kingdom
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Posts: 115
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 Posted: 30 October 2005 at 9:04pm |
I voted no.
If the Police are armed then that gives the Criminal more reason to be too.
I havent experienced our Armed officers yet but I am sure they all do a great job.
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Stan Still
Moderator Group
Crown Skivvie
Joined: 04 September 2005
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 Posted: 30 October 2005 at 9:41pm |
Cage
Word of advice for when you do meet them.
Don't stand between them and the suspect.
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The basic mission for which the police exist is to prevent crime and disorder.
You're Nicked!
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psni20126
Van Driver
Joined: 21 September 2005
Location: United Kingdom
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Posts: 156
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 Posted: 31 October 2005 at 3:08am |
As an officer who is constantly armed with a Glock 17 I would say the following;
1. Being armed does not stop people attacking you!
2. Being armed does not stop Police doing their job!
3. You can have a normal conversation with people even though you are carrying a deadly WEAPON!
4. People are enquisitive as regards the firearm you are carrying!
5. You wil name your firearm!!!!!! Matilda - helps when talking to your partner in front of the kids!
6. Carrying a firearm does not men you are special!
7. The split second decision will be the hardest to make in your life
It is only part of the job, and will become insignificant, however there are people out to hurt Police and they don't worry about the cost
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Proper planning prevents p**s poor preformance
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Barry87
Old Sweat
Joined: 21 September 2005
Location: Northern Ireland
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 Posted: 31 October 2005 at 3:21am |
Originally posted by psni20126
4. People are enquisitive as regards the firearm you are carrying!
That's true, anytime I am talking to a police officer here someone always brings up the gun.
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certacito
Canteen Cowboy
Joined: 28 October 2005
Location: Germany
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 105
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 Posted: 31 October 2005 at 11:44am |
As a MOP I´ve voted no. The reason for this is a personal belief and experiences made living in Germany.
My personal belief is that any Police Officer who is nervous about carrying a sidearm or who catagorically does not want to use a sidearm is a possible liability to themselves, their colleagues and the general public. This is NOT meant in a negative or derogatory sense at all, but rather refers to the split second decision on whether to squeeze the trigger or not. It is an awesome decision and carries an awsome amount of responsibility that should not be forced on Police Officers. If a Police Officer decides that he/she is able to make that kind of decision and live with the consequences afterwards then by all means volunteer to become an AFO/SFO.
My experience living in Germany, is that even though ALL Police Officers are armed, the first call that goes out whenever firearms are in use, or there is a danger of firearms being present, is to the german equivalent of the ARV´s / SFO´s. The system is good and each Police Force in Germany has a large number of ARV´s strategically placed throughout their Tactical Area of Responsibility and at least one SFO Team on permanent standby. Deployment to remote areas is also made easier due to the use of chopper support. If a further level of support is needed, they can also fall back on the GSG9 which is a paramilitary unit of the Federal Police, trained to the same standard as the SAS.
This system does work (bearing in mind that no system is perfect) and instead of arming all British Police Officers I think that the budget on all Forces should be increased to raise the number of ARV´s and SFO´s on a nationwide basis thus reducing response times, increasing the coverage and reassuring the copper on the beat, that armed backup is available.
On a closing note, I would like to thank ALL members of the Police for their professionalism and dedication to duty in such adverse conditions. IT IS APPRECIATED. 
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