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Morek54
Garage Sergeant
Brian Winner 2008
Joined: 19 September 2005
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   Topic: Man shot by Taser injures self and dies
Posted: 21 January 2008 at 6:50pm |
Originally posted by Bullet76
Morek i agree with not taking this thread off task, perhaps i used a wrong example, i wasnt trying to undermine what we do as police officers and as a service just mearley trying to point out some common ground we fall victim to. Sorry if i misinterprated what was said.
Bullet - Don't get me wrong, I think you make a valid point. It's just that I do feel there are significant issues around the care of the mentally ill in our society, which impacts greatly on Policing.
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New Labour: Soft on Crime, Tough on the Fighters of Crime
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Bullet76
Canteen Cowboy
Joined: 23 August 2006
Location: United Kingdom
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Posted: 21 January 2008 at 6:46pm |
I really hope the press highlights the fact the Taser had no part in his death! Probably the most sensible thing the IPCC have said all year!! 
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Stan Still
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Posted: 21 January 2008 at 6:30pm |
Latest update from the BBC A man shot by police with a Taser gun died from neck and chests wounds, a post-mortem examination has revealed.
However, a pathologist said the stun gun shock was NOT a factor in the death of Justin Petty.
Mr Petty, 31, was found injured outside a house in
Goldington, Bedford, after police received reports of a dispute between
a mother and her son.
He threatened officers with a knife and was shot. He went back to the house and was then found with serious injuries.
He was taken to Bedford General Hospital where he died.
The Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC)
looked at the case and decided NOT to investigate the incident, which
happened at 1900 GMT on Saturday.
The IPCC said the case is "suitable for investigation by Bedfordshire Police".
The post-mortem examination found Mr Petty died as a
result of stab wounds to the chest and neck "consistent with self
infliction". I've edited the text a bit to make the relevant and salient points stand out a bit more. I hope that the mealy-mouthed civil liberty advancing, human rights waving, surrender monkeys can see the point!
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Bullet76
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Posted: 21 January 2008 at 4:48pm |
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Morek i agree with not taking this thread off task, perhaps i used a wrong example, i wasnt trying to undermine what we do as police officers and as a service just mearley trying to point out some common ground we fall victim to. Sorry if i misinterprated what was said.
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Morek54
Garage Sergeant
Brian Winner 2008
Joined: 19 September 2005
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Posted: 21 January 2008 at 4:42pm |
Bullet - My opinion remains unchanged. I don't want to take this thread off topic as the potential mental health link has not been established in fact at this time. What I will say though in response to your comments re bail: often it is the courts (another agency) who release individuals, where bail has been denied by the Police. But if someone is released on Police bail and goes on to commit a more serious offence; then invariably it is the Police who pick-up up the pieces of their own mess so to speak. When someone is wrongly discharged from a mental health unit with tragic consequences, it is again the Police who are left to pick-up the pieces albeit not of their own making. Therefore, I think that gives us a least a little right to bemoan the failing of some of these so-call other agencies.
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Shootist
Barrack Room Lawyer
Brian Winner 2008
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Posted: 21 January 2008 at 3:52pm |
On reflection, and bearing in mind that we don't know all the facts and yada yada yada....
I suppose that being a dingbat and an asshole are not necessarily mutually exclusive.
Edited by Shootist - 21 January 2008 at 3:53pm
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This animal is dangerous. If attacked, it will defend itself.
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George Orwell
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Bullet76
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Posted: 21 January 2008 at 3:44pm |
Originally posted by Morek54
Originally posted by Maverick22Apparently the deceased had only just been released from a psychiatric hospital a matter of a few days before.
If it is the case that he was recently discharged from a Psychiatric unit, then this may well be yet another example of failures by the Mental Health services, with the Police as usual been left to pick up the pieces.
I can think of several incidents I have personally been involved in whereby individuals who should clearly have been in a Psychiatric hospital who have been released and have gone on either to kill or kill themselves.
It's called care in the community, apparently...
And the situation has, in my view and experience, worsened since the inception of the Human Rights Act. Mental Health teams now seem more reluctant than ever to section someone clearly in need of sectioning, preferring instead to invite them into Hospital voluntarily or simply releasing them having deemed them not quite 'mad' enough.
Another problem for us is potentially dangerous individuals, who have diagnosed personality disorders, which is not a mental illness per se; therefore, they are rarely if ever admitted to hospital no matter how bizarre their behaviour may be.
But as ever, we are left to deal with the consequences of the poor decisions of Social Workers and Mental Health teams.
I not suggesting that this is necessarily the case on this occasion - but if he had in fact recently been released from hospital; then it does raise some questions as to why if he was if still, seemingly, in such a frame of mind.
Of course there isn't any organisations as enthusiastic as the IPCC to apportion blame and 'investigate' the failings of other agencies.
Im going to play devils advocate some what to this response.
Before we start looking at failings of any agencies and i make refrence to "we are left to deal with the consequences of the poor decisions of Social Workers and Mental Health teams". I understand that you said this wasnt your oppinion but will be the oppinion of some. These workers are subject to the same constraints of the human rights act that as are police and indeed every agency that deals with people. Decisions are often made purely on these constraints. In my oppinion it is no different when a person is not remanded to custody for an offence then commits the same or worse offense soon after. The Public dont give a monkeys PACE said we cant remand someone. Now please dont misinterpret my point. Police are just as upset in the decision making governed by policy and as a result deaths and further offenses occur. Likewise in health decisions can only be made with what is presented and acted on with in practice guide lines. I am not saying there is blame to be had! If the suspect had a knife then it was correct to taser him. Even if he died because of the Tasering (which i think has come to light wasnt the case) then hard lines, unfortunate but justified. (DONT CARRY A KNIFE) Just because he had a recent hospital admission does not mean this occured because of his mental health. Its a very easy conclusion to say he should have been in hospital and mental health to blame. Just as easy to say the prisons are full and should have been in prison but no room!.
This is just my oppinion from both sides of the coin and i dont intend to offend or upset anyone elses view.
Edited by Bullet76 - 21 January 2008 at 3:49pm
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M&MBM
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Posted: 21 January 2008 at 3:07pm |
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Speculationg here... but if they had tasered him again, then maybe he would still be alive. Food for thought whilst sitting on bean bags, perhaps.
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MOP, Joker & reformed character. Honest.  I moderate with purple prose
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Morek54
Garage Sergeant
Brian Winner 2008
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Posted: 21 January 2008 at 12:42pm |
Originally posted by Maverick22
Apparently the deceased had only just been released from a psychiatric hospital a matter of a few days before.
If it is the case that he was recently discharged from a Psychiatric unit, then this may well be yet another example of failures by the Mental Health services, with the Police as usual been left to pick up the pieces.
I can think of several incidents I have personally been involved in whereby individuals who should clearly have been in a Psychiatric hospital who have been released and have gone on either to kill or kill themselves.
It's called care in the community, apparently...
And the situation has, in my view and experience, worsened since the inception of the Human Rights Act. Mental Health teams now seem more reluctant than ever to section someone clearly in need of sectioning, preferring instead to invite them into Hospital voluntarily or simply releasing them having deemed them not quite 'mad' enough.
Another problem for us is potentially dangerous individuals, who have diagnosed personality disorders, which is not a mental illness per se; therefore, they are rarely if ever admitted to hospital no matter how bizarre their behaviour may be.
But as ever, we are left to deal with the consequences of the poor decisions of Social Workers and Mental Health teams.
I not suggesting that this is necessarily the case on this occasion - but if he had in fact recently been released from hospital; then it does raise some questions as to why if he was if still, seemingly, in such a frame of mind.
Of course there isn't any organisations as enthusiastic as the IPCC to apportion blame and 'investigate' the failings of other agencies.
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New Labour: Soft on Crime, Tough on the Fighters of Crime
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sykes
Old Sweat
Joined: 31 July 2006
Location: United Kingdom
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Posted: 21 January 2008 at 11:26am |
Originally posted by M&MBMI see the headline has changed yet again.
And the picture. And the description of how a taser works has gone. In fact, the report is very different.
One thing that pizzles me is how he was able to get up and run back into the house after the "taser was discharged".
Not to long ago we had a violent domestic ARV were called and ended up having to use taser.
The offender who i beleive was either drunk or drugged had to be stunned a number of times.
Taser is a onderful piece of kit but like CS has its limits and on occasion may not provide the expected result
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Maverick22
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Brian Winner 2008
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Posted: 21 January 2008 at 11:24am |
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Apparently the deceased had only just been released from a psychiatric hospital a matter of a few days before.
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Light travels faster than sound, thats why some people appear bright, until they open their mouths. A Chicken crossing the road, poultry in motion. .
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30down92go
Barrack Room Lawyer
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Posted: 21 January 2008 at 11:11am |
It's my understanding TASER isn't that effective on drugged or drunk subjects as their nerves don't respond the normal way. As usual willing to be corrected 
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I may be an ex copper, but I'm still a serving cynic
Nostalgia is not what it used to be
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M&MBM
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Posted: 21 January 2008 at 10:41am |
I see the headline has changed yet again.
And the picture. And the description of how a taser works has gone. In fact, the report is very different.
One thing that pizzles me is how he was able to get up and run back into the house after the "taser was discharged".
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MOP, Joker & reformed character. Honest. I moderate with purple prose
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Penbwlch
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Posted: 21 January 2008 at 10:35am |
Originally posted by BIkerider
Originally posted by Stan Still
I've complained to the BBC about the sensationalism of the headline and asked them to change it.
Having had past experience of doing the same thing I can say you will have about as much luck in doing that, as George W Bush becoming a pacifist and embracing Islam! So GB is now introducing Sharia law to the states?
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I used to be conceited. Now I'm Perfect
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BIkerider
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Posted: 21 January 2008 at 10:21am |
Originally posted by Stan Still
I've complained to the BBC about the sensationalism of the headline and asked them to change it.
Having had past experience of doing the same thing I can say you will have about as much luck in doing that, as George W Bush becoming a pacifist and embracing Islam!
Edited by BIkerider - 21 January 2008 at 10:22am
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Kingy from Tyneside
You were only supposed to blow the bloody doors off - Michael Caine in the original 'Italian Job'
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30down92go
Barrack Room Lawyer
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Posted: 21 January 2008 at 10:06am |
OW you've obviously not read enough posts  . If your hearing is good enough you might hear the odd whisper of contention but it would be drowned out by the applause of the many directed towards our NOW SAFE colleagues 
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I may be an ex copper, but I'm still a serving cynic
Nostalgia is not what it used to be
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Overtime Whore
Wooden Top
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Posted: 20 January 2008 at 6:54pm |
Well at least he won't be waving knives at police officers anymore & wasting police time.
We've talked about this today at our nick... general concencous is "tough titties".... better him than me.
Bobbies in our division are getting assaulted on a daily basis and it's high time we started giving it back...
And before you all start shouting at me.... I don't beleive for one minute that any front line response officer didn't think "tough sh*t" when they heard the news.
Edited by Overtime Whore - 20 January 2008 at 6:55pm
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M&MBM
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Posted: 20 January 2008 at 6:22pm |
Oh, I see. Thanks.
For a minute I thought you thought I thought (hope you're keeping up here) tasers shouldn't be used. On the contrary.
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MOP, Joker & reformed character. Honest. I moderate with purple prose
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Shootist
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Brian Winner 2008
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Posted: 20 January 2008 at 6:15pm |
Originally posted by M&MBM
Interesting that they now have a description of how a taser works and how some say it's harmful at the bottom of the report, though. Well done Stan.
That bit.
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This animal is dangerous. If attacked, it will defend itself.
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If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever.
George Orwell
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M&MBM
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Posted: 20 January 2008 at 6:08pm |
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That's an interesting post, Shootist, but quite what it has to do with my post, I can't quite grasp.
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MOP, Joker & reformed character. Honest. I moderate with purple prose
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