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Morek54
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Quote Morek54 Replybullet Topic: Call to Make Flag Burning a Crime
    Posted: 29 October 2006 at 8:28am

A Senior Muslim Police Officer has called for flag burning and 'face' covering to be made criminal offences in a bid to tackle Muslim Extremist protesters.  Thats all well and good, providing such offences are enforced.  The last such protests I witnessed on the news; there were clearly offences been committed, but no action taken against the offenders.  Undoubtedly, this was for reasons of political correctness.  We don't necessarily need more new laws, just a more robust enforcement of current laws.  Any new law would be entirely pointless if enforced as positively as, say, the public order act has been at previous such demos.  Of course, the government will perhaps oblige.  They have a track record of churning out new legislation to deal with problems, which in reality could more effectively be dealt with by existing offences - and more importantly, a more robust and effective Policing agenda in the first place.  Alas though, such a simple concept would undoubtedly be at odds with the Human Rights act and the liberal, politically correct 'right-on' thinking of many senior Police Officers.  And clearly, we are in a no win situation anyway - a more robust approach at such demos would potentially escalate into serious disorder, with the IPCC waiting in the wings. 

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Maverick22
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Quote Maverick22 Replybullet Posted: 29 October 2006 at 8:35am
Originally posted by Morek54

A Senior Muslim Police Officer has called for flag burning and 'face' covering to be made criminal offences in a bid to tackle Muslim Extremist protesters.  Thats all well and good, providing such offences are enforced.  The last such protests I witnessed on the news; there were clearly offences been committed, but no action taken against the offenders.  Undoubtedly, this was for reasons of political correctness.  We don't necessarily need more new laws, just a more robust enforcement of current laws.  Any new law would be entirely pointless if enforced as positively as, say, the public order act has been at previous such demos.  Of course, the government will perhaps oblige.  They have a track record of churning out new legislation to deal with problems, which in reality could more effectively be dealt with by existing offences - and more importantly, a more robust and effective Policing agenda in the first place.  Alas though, such a simple concept would undoubtedly be at odds with the Human Rights act and the liberal, politically correct 'right-on' thinking of many senior Police Officers.  And clearly, we are in a no win situation anyway - a more robust approach at such demos would potentially escalate into serious disorder, with the IPCC waiting in the wings. 

Well said Morek54, I think it's time Tarique came off the fence and decides which side he wants to be on. He has issued statements in the past which make you wonder who's side he is on. 
Light travels faster than sound, thats why some people appear bright, until they open their mouths. A Chicken crossing the road, poultry in motion. .
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sneaky_beaky
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Quote sneaky_beaky Replybullet Posted: 29 October 2006 at 9:19am
According to the Beeb, ACPO have asked/are in the process of asking for new legislation about Public Order.
 
 
Anyone get any views on this?
 
At first thought I have to say that I would think there's already plenty of Public Order legislation; we just don't make use of it. A cynic would suggest this is ACPO trying to justify perceived lack of action at recent high profile incidents due to lack of legislative tools, rather than high level lack of bottle (IMHO).
 
So; would you welcome making burning the British flag a specific offence,or would you wish the legislation to cover any national flag?
 
Playing Devil's advocate; I suppose there could be a valid argument that the burning of the Flag is such a rejection of the British way of things (liberal democracy, rule of law, tolerance and fair play) that it would be on a par with a counter-demonstration burning the Holy Qu'ran for example....just imagine what would happen if that were filmed happening on British streets! (NOT THAT I AM ADVOCATING THAT, before anyone misunderstands me)
 
So what do we feel-need some more in next years Blackstones or what?
 
(Was it on this forum I read about a bloke who tried to order a Hamas flag from a flag shop to burn it at the time of the Danish protests, to draw a bit of public attention to the perceived imbalence; only to be told that as Hamas were a proscribed organisation, selling a flag would be counter to the terrorism act 2000....was an entertaining idea anyway)
"Aut Inveniam Viam Aut Faciam"
(We shall either find a way or make one)
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Quote Police Oracle Replybullet Posted: 29 October 2006 at 9:25am
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sneaky_beaky
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Quote sneaky_beaky Replybullet Posted: 29 October 2006 at 9:32am
Mods; Eeek-Sorry tried to start a thread on UK Law about this.
 
Do you want to merge them?
"Aut Inveniam Viam Aut Faciam"
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Weird Beard
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Quote Weird Beard Replybullet Posted: 29 October 2006 at 9:37am
Hes probably got a wide line straight across both arse cheeks from sitting on the fence so long.Big%20smile
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Penbwlch
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Quote Penbwlch Replybullet Posted: 29 October 2006 at 10:01am
Originally posted by sneaky_beaky

Mods; Eeek-Sorry tried to start a thread on UK Law about this.
 
Do you want to merge them?


Done

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stefcurran2330
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Quote stefcurran2330 Replybullet Posted: 29 October 2006 at 1:03pm
The quandary we find ourselves in, dates back to as far back as the Ancient Greeks. Democracy has a"freedom of expression" as a cornerstone; it's a founding right; so in order to guard democracy do we ban freedom of expression? The question is; how far do the government go?
Banning burning of the Union Jack today, preventing opposition to the government tommorow?
As a paralell to this, in Northern Ireland and in Iraq we used to wear Union Jack flashes to identify us, we were then ordered to strip them from our uniforms so as not to "antagonise" the local populace! The fact that we were there on the streets and all over them like a rash was some what more antagonistic!
 
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POCA
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Quote POCA Replybullet Posted: 30 October 2006 at 10:28pm
I'd imagine any attempt to outlaw flag burning would fall foul of ECHR, the same as it fell foul to the Bill of Rights in the US. Although I must say there's a lot to be said for the argument that burning the dear old Union Flag in public is provoking behaviour.

Edited by POCA - 30 October 2006 at 10:28pm
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Quote FishFace Replybullet Posted: 30 October 2006 at 11:04pm
Flag burning should not be outlawed. 
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Fingersmuldoon
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Quote Fingersmuldoon Replybullet Posted: 31 October 2006 at 1:07am

Surely appropriate legislation already exists within the POA to cover this.   The circumstances under wich the burning of any flag would, could and should dictate the appropriate response.  

Setting fire to a bit of bunting by accident is one thing.   But the burning of any nations flag in front of its nationals (ex-pats or otherwise) during any form of protest must surely constitue 'Language or Behaviour etc etc etc..."?
 
As other posters have already said, I think it just needs management with "testicular fortitude" to back up any grass roots officers who may apply the appropriate legislation.


Edited by Fingersmuldoon - 31 October 2006 at 1:09am
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