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dangermouse
Van Driver
Joined: 01 April 2007
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Posts: 197
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 Topic: HMG Need Help Posted: 30 July 2010 at 2:13pm |
With all that’s going on recently and the onslaught on the police FORCE, I thought it might be good to put a few suggestions forward to help the government out in saving time and money in the police service?
After all we know where the waste is and what changes would benefit.
If the suggestions are sensible the mods might want to copy a link onto the spend challenge website. (Just a thought)
1. Return all powers back to custody Sergeant to charge for ALL offences other than indictable. (This single action would put a huge number of officers back onto the street all around the country).
2. Scale down CPS revolutionize CJS with regards victim compensation and
Punishment of offenders. Consider going back to the police employing prosecutors.
3. Scrap streamline process and go back to Old normal file build, it was quicker!
Edited by dangermouse - 30 July 2010 at 2:17pm
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procrastination is the thief of time (you snooze you lose).
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30down92go
Barrack Room Lawyer
Joined: 09 November 2006
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Posts: 2595
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 Posted: 30 July 2010 at 2:18pm |
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Probably slots in there somewher go back to the arresting officer attending cort with his arrest Report book, and a copy of the prisoners property list, for restoration at court should they plead guilty. If a not guilty plea or remnd then the hearing date is set to give the OIC plenty of time to create a full file if needed. Old school but it worked for decades
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I may be an ex copper, but I'm still a serving cynic
Nostalgia is not what it used to be
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Backlash
Garage Sergeant
Joined: 20 October 2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1176
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 Posted: 30 July 2010 at 2:32pm |
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Please Please PLEASE do away with e-learning packages. THEY DO NOT WORK !! Officers have e-learning packages sent through to them with monotonous regularity in my force, and I can honestly say that to my knowledge, 99% do not have time to complete them properly. It is a matter of clicking through the package as quick as you can in order that you can get back to the other jobs you have piling up...
E-learning packages are great as a pre read or knowledge check, but should not be used as stand alone packages for no other reason than it reduces abstraction and money...
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Used to hate when old aunts came up to me after weddings and said "u r next" They stopped that when I did the same to them after funerals...
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Penbwlch
Moderator Group
Joined: 12 August 2005
Online Status: Online
Posts: 57352
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 Posted: 30 July 2010 at 3:35pm |
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IM(not so)HO, there is only one thing to do that would have a major beneficial impact. I agree with dangermouse but would go further. Just abolish the CPS.
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I used to be conceited. Now I'm Perfect
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BIkerider
Moderator Group
Joined: 03 February 2007
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Posts: 3518
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 Posted: 30 July 2010 at 3:42pm |
Originally posted by Penbwlch
IM(not so)HO, there is only one thing to do that would have a major beneficial impact. I agree with dangermouse but would go further. Just abolish the CPS. You really do dislike them don't you? I can't say I am far behind though!
Edited by BIkerider - 30 July 2010 at 3:43pm
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Kingy from Tyneside
You were only supposed to blow the bloody doors off - Michael Caine in the original 'Italian Job'
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Penbwlch
Moderator Group
Joined: 12 August 2005
Online Status: Online
Posts: 57352
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 Posted: 30 July 2010 at 4:13pm |
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Yes. All backup is most welcome. I have seen them rip apart the job I loved and created a massive rise in crime.
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I used to be conceited. Now I'm Perfect
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newBeatboy
Class I (Fighter Command)
Joined: 11 November 2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 433
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 Posted: 30 July 2010 at 4:32pm |
One of my ACPOs was amazed when I said that I had spent most of a nine hour shift in custody with a minor criminal damage case because it required CPS advice. I explained that I had spent about three or four hours writing an advice file, faxing it off, awaiting a telephone call, then awaiting the charge decision.
I honestly don't think our bosses always know how frustratingly bureaucratic the job is. In their day file building was a whole different issue. Perhaps a few days with the staff would be helpful?
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So all you really got to do
is just-a move you little feet
And just-a rock-a to the beat
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30down92go
Barrack Room Lawyer
Joined: 09 November 2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2595
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 Posted: 30 July 2010 at 5:39pm |
CPS;- Are they worth the 9p far a bullet ?
I draw your attention to the first time they appeared at Old St Mgts Court, (a small court not used all that much but used in this cae to showcase to CPS). 40 crims in waiting the CPS turn up WITHOUT THE CASE PAPERS . Ergo reluctantly 40 crims set free as the prosecution has no case to prosecute, no papers unable to oppose the court's ruling. All the world's press were there, we attended to assist the local lads purely due to the crush of the press trying to get an interview or 3.
The leading CPS B'stard started to blame the OICs for FORGETTING THEIR CASE PAPERS. However the stype who hated the CPS for their poor performance quickly put the press straight as to who was to blame 
Sadly I believe (according to the rumour mill) he succumed to pressure to retire early 
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I may be an ex copper, but I'm still a serving cynic
Nostalgia is not what it used to be
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Shuck
Van Driver
Joined: 22 November 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 167
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 Posted: 30 July 2010 at 8:55pm |
CPS= Couldn't Prosecute Satan.
How about promoting people because of their ability to do the job, as opposed promoting them beyond their ability to do the job?
Get rid of Safer Neighbourhood Teams, Response Teams, Priority Crime Teams, Major Crime Teams, etc etc, and return to a system called the 'A shift'.
Each shift could have a Sergeant, and have beat officers, panda drivers and area car drivers.
High value crimes, serious assaults etc could be investigated by something that is called CID.
Perhaps the idea of 'keep it simple' might work, again.
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And a dreadful thing from the cliff did spring,
and its wild bark thrill'd around,
His eyes had the glow of the fires below,
'twas the form of the spectre hound!
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Antipodean
Billy Basic
Joined: 17 February 2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 92
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 Posted: 31 July 2010 at 12:16am |
Originally posted by dangermouse
Consider going back to the police employing prosecutors.
It works in Australia. The Police do the prosecuting for all offences in the Magistrates Court and the DPP (the analogue to your CPS) do it for all offences in the District Court. I'm not going to say that it's perfect, but, when you talk to a Police prosecutor, you can be assured that as a Police Officer he/she has done the following: - Seen victims covered in their own blood - Fought with angry people - Jumped over fences at 0300 chasing crooks - Been covered in their own blood - Typed a complete arrest file at 0930 after locking up some crook at 0230 and is longing just to go home and get to bed - Seen defendants in their natural environment, not just in Court with a suit on It's not perfect, but, it works. And, if you don't like how it's done, there is nothing stopping you from doing the course and becoming a Prosecutor yourself and doing a better job, if you can. No need for a law degree.
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Maverick22
Moderator Group
Brian Winner 2008
Joined: 30 July 2005
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Posts: 28723
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 Posted: 31 July 2010 at 9:39am |
Originally posted by BIkerider
Originally posted by Penbwlch
IM(not so)HO, there is only one thing to do that would have a major beneficial impact. I agree with dangermouse but would go further. Just abolish the CPS. You really do dislike them don't you? I can't say I am far behind though! I am right on your heels. What sums them up for me is when we were in court for a Vascar 'not guilty'. The CPS solicitor says, ''That Vascar is really clever, do you just point it at the offending vehicle and it tells you the speed and distance''. We won the case, but no thanks to the CPS solicitor.
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Light travels faster than sound, thats why some people appear bright, until they open their mouths. A Chicken crossing the road, poultry in motion. .
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threaders
Van Driver
Joined: 30 September 2008
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 172
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 Posted: 05 August 2010 at 5:35pm |
Originally posted by ShuckCPS= Couldn't Prosecute Satan.
How about promoting people because of their ability to do the job, as opposed promoting them beyond their ability to do the job?
Get rid of Safer Neighbourhood Teams, Response Teams, Priority Crime Teams, Major Crime Teams, etc etc, and return to a system called the 'A shift'.
Each shift could have a Sergeant, and have beat officers, panda drivers and area car drivers.
High value crimes, serious assaults etc could be investigated by something that is called CID.
Perhaps the idea of 'keep it simple' might work, again. I agree but would go even further and question the very need for CID / traffic units / NPT / SNT etc to remain in their current guises. I can see where there is a need for a robust investigative remit for homicides / major conspiracies and cross border criminality etc, but rather than putting detectives all in one unit, I would trim CID back drastically. As a matter of routine I think we should put more officers through the ICIDP programme because it can only broaden officers knowledge and increase officers ability to deal crimes and victims more effectively. Let a smaller CID take a more consultative role and deal with only the most serious crimes such as murder. In my view we need a major re-think - lets go back to larger teams where you have a mix of skills and abilities - for example having qualified detective officers working shoulder to shoulder in uniform with probationers - ds working alongside ps - you would break down barriers or this age old silo mentality - you would ensure that there would be a sharing of experience and knowledge - for more serious offences, problems that may be anticipated by ex cid types but maybe not younger officers would be identified at an earlier stage. Oh, and I would have them in uniform. IMHO and experience most of the time the attire of the officer doesn't compromise the integrity of an investigation or add value to it - I don't believe anyone can convince me otherwise! Obviously where a witness / victim / informant etc doesn't want a uniform presence for genuine operational / welfare reasons, it is not beyond the wit of man for such a need to be accomodated. There will be arguments about stats and ability to cope with demand / workload etc, but I reckon that the work that many forces have been through (management speak - not my words...) workforce modernisation projects in creating a leaner approach to investigations can be continued and developed further. It is no secret that CID / major incident units investigate crimes by methodically delegating actions or specific tasks to be completed - it is not rocket science or dark art with the knowledge shared by only a few enlightened or specifically invited individuals - it is organised and considered policing. We have the systems already for the rationale can be continued but if you extend the ICIDP programme, there would be a larger pool of people qualified to investigate more serious crime. Advanced drivers / traffic qualified officers on the team would remove need for most force level traffic resources. As someone who has spent time in different specialist roles, I obviously see the value in the support that they can provide, but in essence we would not be losing that capacity per se - they would be working as part of a team and pulling together to provide a better service to the public and helping colleagues. Why have traditional traffic officers only dealing with traffic matters - why cant they go to violent domestics or lock up shoplifters where appropriate? To use a football analogy, at the moment we are like a team that plays with strict zonal marking in the box - the attitude is something like if the ball is not in my area it is not my problem - if the other team score and it didn't come near me its not my fault. To continue this ridiculous analogy we need to move away from this and move towards a quasi-Ajax style of total football where everyone is happy in possession in most situations. So for the job it means that if for example I was a traffic officer I would have the skills to be able to interview effectively for something like robbery , or deal with police protection orders under the childrens act etc, or detain someone under sec 136 of mental health act, or be happy with dealing with speeders etc. Just in the same way that a traditional response officer should be happy to deal with the scene of a RTC and the subsequent investigation. As for neighbourhood policing, - yes there are good
aspects such as diversionary projects etc, but IMHO these would be more
suited to the youth / social services. All the partnership / strategy /
comprehensive area assessment meetings that basically take cops away
from their main role of dealing with the public by using warranted
police powers are actually diluting the service provided to the
public and perpetuating the bureaucratic machine that we have become. We need to get back to basics and our core business. I am sure I have said it before but we have to be realistic about what we can achieve in this financial climate - we cant be all things to all men, and we cant keep on accepting more and more areas of responsibility ad-infinitum. We have to work more as a cohesive team with a defined common goal - we are under threat from all sides and we need to get our house in order. Productivity is a dirty word in most walks of life, but we have to accept that we will be asked do more with less - simple fact. If the Audit Commission have their way and have the goal posts shifted, more and more of our colleagues will be stacking shelves in aisle 3 before long . Oh, and computer based learning packages are rubbish!!!
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Gringo
Garage Sergeant
Jolly Good Sport Award
Joined: 25 April 2007
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Posts: 1156
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 Posted: 05 August 2010 at 10:33pm |
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If in doubt blame the cops!
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30down92go
Barrack Room Lawyer
Joined: 09 November 2006
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Posts: 2595
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 Posted: 06 August 2010 at 6:26am |
I have to agree with some of threaders comments, but it is impossible to be masters of everything. Specialisation was brought in (excluding empire building of course) as legislation and impositions on officers increased. To go back to your football analogy if you play your team out of their best positions you lose a world cup.
We cannot be Jacks of All Trades but Masters of None. We do the best we can with what, comparatively, little we are given (knowledge wise) And yes computer learning sucks.
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I may be an ex copper, but I'm still a serving cynic
Nostalgia is not what it used to be
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HMService
Class I (Fighter Command)
Joined: 07 November 2006
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Posts: 553
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 Posted: 06 August 2010 at 8:46am |
Originally posted by threaders
I agree but would go even further and question the very need for CID / traffic units / NPT / SNT etc to remain in their current guises.
I think we should put more officers through the ICIDP programme because it can only broaden officers knowledge and increase officers ability to deal crimes and victims more effectively. Let a smaller CID take a more consultative role and deal with only the most serious crimes such as murder.
I'm sorry but the ICIDP does not a Detective make. The CID has already been decimated skills wise and in many places is already about dead.
If in this current age of cost cutting the coup-de-grace has to be administered to the already prone Detective then it must...But the "Stick everyone in uniform and focus on that approach" is naieve I believe.
I've heard for years from Traffic and intervention about how the CID sit in their offices playing nom while the uniform take a beating on the streets- They should get out there and help out etc etc. All the interesting expressions you can get out of C, I and D.
I would remind you though- The public accuse the uniform and traffic of being lazy-Why don't you pick on real criminals? Eating again??Haven't you got anything better to do?
These questions are borne of ignorance-They don't understand.
The CID (as it was before the advent of becoming a Detective by ICIDP) was all about dealing with complicated time consuming cases. Now we are mostly manipulating crime figures for the Home Office or biding our time before retirement on fraud squads etc. Do away with us if you must but I can't realistically coach someone through a kidnap or a complex fraud or an attempted murder.
If we are going to let serious crime and anti terrorism etc slide in favour of "frontline policing" then fine but lets not cry when it hits us in the face.
We always tend to see what we are dealing with and assume that's where ALL the action is.
In the middle of a riot spread over a square mile what would happen if one serial commander said "I want ALL officers HERE at this spot with me NOW" ?
HMS
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Fear and Trust Not.....
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30down92go
Barrack Room Lawyer
Joined: 09 November 2006
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Posts: 2595
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 Posted: 06 August 2010 at 1:34pm |
 
far more eloquent then my feeble attempt, and no I've never been CID nor Traffic.
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I may be an ex copper, but I'm still a serving cynic
Nostalgia is not what it used to be
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newBeatboy
Class I (Fighter Command)
Joined: 11 November 2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 433
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 Posted: 07 August 2010 at 1:12pm |
HMS - agreed, there is too much parochialism. The specialism are there for a reason.
However, as Sir Dennis O'Connor said recently, do we need police constables in any jobs with 'Liaison' or 'Co-ordinator' in their title? I would argue for Family Liaison Officers, but that's not all they do...
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So all you really got to do
is just-a move you little feet
And just-a rock-a to the beat
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30down92go
Barrack Room Lawyer
Joined: 09 November 2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2595
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 Posted: 07 August 2010 at 1:43pm |
NBB yep FLO's for certain, not sure about Prison or Court Liaison Officers, "back in the day" (whatever that means) when we prosecuted our own cases at Mgt court the CLO, an experienced PC or Sgt would help ensure you were on track with court protocols & procedures and didn't make an ass of yourself.
As for Football Liaison Officers, apart from getting their pictures taken a lot and tickets for their mates (yes I know they probably did more than that) I can't see a need for them now.
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I may be an ex copper, but I'm still a serving cynic
Nostalgia is not what it used to be
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OnlySoMuch
Class I (Fighter Command)
Joined: 17 December 2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 508
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 Posted: 08 August 2010 at 11:58pm |
I too agree with much of what has been said but when you talk about a response officer 'attending an RTC and dealing with the subsequent investigation i assume you are talking of a basic non complex one?
Anyone who has been involved with a serious injury, fatal or otherwise complex RTC will know you need the specialist skills and experience to even know what to do, let alone how. I assume the same can probably be said for many of the more serious crimes that CID deal with.
has any response officer got a clue how to investigate and deal with any of the new 'death by...' offences? I don't say that with any criticism as i enjoyed my time on response and still feel they take the burden of the workload, but Traffic, CID, SOC, MIT and a few others like child protection will always be needed - after that, yes get rid of the empires which have been built up with lots of teams with remits and go back to big shifts.
I wouldn't be against moving traffic and CID officers in with shifts but you would need to keep them available as much as possible for those offences that needed them, otherwise when i large hazchem pile up came in, or a murder/rape etc, with the relevant officer at a job or in interview, someone else would be put in an unfair situation in being asked to attend and deal, then criticised when it went wrong.
Who would attend pile ups in the fog on the motorway?
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Stop the world, i want to get off!
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BJock
Garage Sergeant
Joined: 16 September 2005
Location: France
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1136
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 Posted: 09 August 2010 at 12:15pm |
Originally posted by HMService
Originally posted by threadersI agree but would go even further and question the very need for CID / traffic units / NPT / SNT etc to remain in their current guises. I think we should put more officers through the ICIDP programme because it can only broaden officers knowledge and increase officers ability to deal crimes and victims more effectively. Let a smaller CID take a more consultative role and deal with only the most serious crimes such as murder.
I'm sorry but the ICIDP does not a Detective make. The CID has already been decimated skills wise and in many places is already about dead.
If in this current age of cost cutting the coup-de-grace has to be administered to the already prone Detective then it must...But the "Stick everyone in uniform and focus on that approach" is naieve I believe.
I've heard for years from Traffic and intervention about how the CID sit in their offices playing nom while the uniform take a beating on the streets- They should get out there and help out etc etc. All the interesting expressions you can get out of C, I and D.
I would remind you though- The public accuse the uniform and traffic of being lazy-Why don't you pick on real criminals? Eating again??Haven't you got anything better to do?
These questions are borne of ignorance-They don't understand.
The CID (as it was before the advent of becoming a Detective by ICIDP) was all about dealing with complicated time consuming cases. Now we are mostly manipulating crime figures for the Home Office or biding our time before retirement on fraud squads etc. Do away with us if you must but I can't realistically coach someone through a kidnap or a complex fraud or an attempted murder.
If we are going to let serious crime and anti terrorism etc slide in favour of "frontline policing" then fine but lets not cry when it hits us in the face.
We always tend to see what we are dealing with and assume that's where ALL the action is.
In the middle of a riot spread over a square mile what would happen if one serial commander said "I want ALL officers HERE at this spot with me NOW" ?
HMS
Well said that man and when your on relief /team/ or whatever they want to call it , how will these jack of all trades deal with a long term nigerian cheque/credit card fraud which takes from one end of London to the other searching adresses arresting suspect , how will these multi omnipitent officers have the time to make a statement producing over 1000 paper exhibits a,d then copy those exhibits X5 or 6. Just a thought.
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Justice is incidental to law and order
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